The size of rivets compared to real for IL2 game

[Steven190]

This is a general observation that I was thinking about for sometime. It is what is the real rivets compared to the
the ones we use in our templates.

The template I used is the 2048 x 2048 size so I could get the best possible measurements.
I have several dimentional drawings of German aircraft mostly, so I decided to do some math to see if the rivets are close to real life.
The problem is that even though we have good dimentions, the templateswe use are not that accurate in their lines and points.
I tried to get as close as I could to different point to point measurements. I took eight points using the metric measurements
divided by the pixels.

What I found was that one pixel equals 4.52 to 4.97 mm. Which turns out to be very close to the flush rivets heads of the
2mm and 2,5mm shank rivets which are 4 mm and 5 mm head diameters.I could not rally find any data that told me what the size
that was used in the German aircraft, but that was close to the common size in US planes.

3mm shanks (6 mm head) = 1/8" shanks (.235" head) most commonly used
5mm shanks (10 mm head) = 3/16" shank (.351" head)

Now the assumption is that we use a 1 pixel base rivet with 2 pixels used for the shade, that equals 15mm in diamenter rivet that shows in game.
This is a 8mm shanks with a 16mm head (5/8"= .625" head) which seems too large to me.
Not really knowing what sizes were used, especially in German aircraft, it is hard to say what is the correct rivet.
My though is that it should be the smallist size as possible. I, too am at fault, as many to using too large rivets in skinning. It becomes ever worse in the 1028 x 1028 templates.

The solution is hard to find since the amount of space we have for the templates. I guess it falls to the user as to what looks real to them. Some people
are more critical than others. Me I like to be as accurate as possible. I guess I am a fustrated perfectionist.

Anyone have any further info, that I have missed?

[Clint Mitchell]

How's your German?

Your question is quite complex as different sizes and types of rivets were used on different areas and parts of the aircraft.

[Serval]

How big a pixel of an IL-2 game skin is, largely depends on how big the aircraft is and how the skin was mapped to the model. So, you'll have to calculate it exactly every time. And like you say a pixel averages some 5 mm, which still gives pretty large steps, so it's hard to position the rivets accurately.

People just like to see rivets, even though in real life you hardly see them. It's just like wih the lens flare, and the propeller where you can see every blade which people got used to see, since that effect is created by the shutter time of camera's.

Since it is impossible to draw them accurate enough, my suggestion would be to make them barely visible so you see them only when you zoom in.

[Steven190]

I am most interested in the top of the wing, the one you can see through the cockpit.

Most are the flush type, but I do not know the size they used. I am thinking that they were the 3mm shanks size, for most of the wing.
But not sure, could be the 5mm ones.

I guess my point is either one, in game they are probably too large.

What I am thinking about is just doing a base rivet, with the dent layers on either side, just to see what it looks like.

[Steven190]

Thanks
I am mostly interested in fighter, which are small any way.
This is just rambling thoughts as to see if there maybe a better alternative.

How big a pixel of an IL-2 game skin is, largely depends on how big the aircraft is and how the skin was mapped to the model. So, you'll have to calculate it exactly every time. And like you say a pixel averages some 5 mm, which still gives pretty large steps, so it's hard to position the rivets accurately.

People just like to see rivets, even though in real life you hardly see them. It's just like wih the lens flare, and the propeller where you can see every blade which people got used to see, since that effect is created by the shutter time of camera's.

Since it is impossible to draw them accurate enough, my suggestion would be to make them barely visible so you see them only when you zoom in.

[Steven190]

There are two shot of the wing, First is the wing with the shaded rivets



Here is a alternative, it is a base rivet layer, with the dent layers




Please give your comments as to which one you like.

[Serval]

The highlight is too strong, I think. And also the rivets can be toned down a lot in my opinion.

Take a look at photo's like below to see what rivets look like from the cockpit.:
PHOTOGRAPHS: THE VIEW FROM FIGHTER PILOTS COCKPIT

Not from the cockpit, but here you can see that even from a small distance blind rivets are not visible when painted over:
Picture of the Supermarine Spitfire

Just google around for close up photo's to get an idea.

[Steven190]

This is what I was looking for an opinion.

Thanks for the reply

I guess this is going to be a question for all time. It depends on the aircraft and how it was built, from good workers to slave workers.

This is my dilemma as I have spent time in the cockpit looking at the wings of some different planes. Some you can see the rivets and wrinkles, others not so much.

Looking at the different skin that have been produced through the years and this subject varies widely for skin to skin.

What I guess I am getting at is what would be a good representation for some skins in IL2. I will have to play around to see what I get.