If you start skinning for a new sim, ...

[Osram]

... what resources do you need or want?
What features in the sim?

Any idea, even outlandish ones are welcome.

Think about what things helped you when you started on a flight sim and what things you missed / had trouble with.

But please do not see this as promise that ideas will be implemented next week or that all will be implemented .

[adlabs6]

Well, when I started for IL2, most often requested was a 3d model viewer, so that we could quickly check how the skin is looking without launching the entire game. Some people (myself included) were able to task switch between IL2 and our paint program, but many others could not.

I really like the reflection maps that I found when I started working with FS2004, some interesting effects can be done with that.

Also, in many cases the rivet/panel line voids from IL2 were quite good, but had to be remade because they were stuck on the background. If they had been avaliable as a PSD with the rivets and lines on a separate layer, it would have saved some work, especially for new guys. Unfortunately with many, many aircrafts in IL2 releasing this many PSDs would have been likely impossible.

Lastly, I often recall that in game online play with IL2 suffered from having to transfer the uncompressed skin file through the network before it would show up. Now, in the early IL2 days, this was OK, even on dialup as the skins were only 256k each. But with FB, now each skin was 1MB and almost never would some people's skins finally appear in game to other players! There was often talk about having the game "compress" the skin files before sending them to the other players PCs to save transfer time.

[Osram]

Well, when I started for IL2, most often requested was a 3d model viewer, so that we could quickly check how the skin is looking without launching the entire game. Some people (myself included) were able to task switch between IL2 and our paint program, but many others could not.

Ok, I will think about whether to really create a viewer, which is possible but more work or whether to do it in the game itself.

If I understand , the requirement is that once you have saved or exported the file it is a very quick job to see it in 3D on the target model? Or are there other advantages to a viewer?

I really like the reflection maps that I found when I started working with FS2004, some interesting effects can be done with that.

Yes, I heard that before from MSFS/CFS skinners.
<Coder's talk> I think this basically switches specular reflections on and off and does not affect the specular exponent, IOW the size of the highlights? </Coder's Talk>
Is there a tutorial or description about them somewhere?

Also, in many cases the rivet/panel line voids from IL2 were quite good, but had to be remade because they were stuck on the background. If they had been avaliable as a PSD with the rivets and lines on a separate layer

Yes, I agree it would be nice to have a completely layered skin for each planetype, say in PSD format. Unfortunately, we are not able to supply this and it will be a job for the community

Lastly, I often recall that in game online play with IL2 suffered from having to transfer the uncompressed skin file through the network

Good point in general, but BoB2 is offline only.

[Serval]

I have almost only skinned for IL-2.

I think my idea will be power consuming.
But what I sometimes wish for is some kind of mapping that allows you to tell exactly what should be glossy/shining and what should be matt.
Then you need at least 3 degrees: matt, silk and gloss and maybe shining for bare metal or metallic paint.
Sounds a bit like what adlabs describes, though I'm not familiar with it.

I second adlabs notes on file transfer. I think starting as early as possible to exchange skins.
For example: in a coop mission one hits 'fly' which means his settings are final. Meanwhile it can take a few to even a lot minutes until the last one is ready. I think that is the best time to exchange skins.
People that have hit the 'fly' button can start transmitting the skins to all other players. And since the game is in rest, you can use a lot bandwidth for that. As soon as the game starts the gam,e data should get full priority.

And using peer to peer like systems for that, also between various/all clients, might help.
Assume you have 4 players:
A, B, C, D
A has a skin. When B is downloading it C and D are in queue waiting.
When B has finished C can start downloading. D would have to be in queue again until C finishes. Meanwhile D could download A's skin from B.
I know it's a very simplified model that does not work when all four of them have skins all others do not have. But it will start working when people fly together a lot and thus have most of eachothers skins.

Another disadvantage of IL-2 is that you only see a skin immediately when it is in your netcache and not when you have the original skin in your skins folder. That cached skin has an unknown filename, so we also have no ways to work around the problem, like puttiong a cached skin there manually to prevent file exchange and thus chance of lag.

I have thought of some skin exchange program where you can exchange skins with friends, but that would not help to ease the problem, since it really needs to be in your cache with the encoded filename.

And I also second that usable voids (PSD or clean voids without shade and dirt effects) would help a lot of people.

[Osram]

I think my idea will be power consuming.
But what I sometimes wish for is some kind of mapping that allows you to tell exactly what should be glossy/shining and what should be matt.

You could have a second map that conatins the, roughly speaking, glossiness. This would use the same mapping as the original map, IOW if the aileron is on the lower left in the "main" skin, it is also in the "glossiness" skin. If I guess correctly, this is how MSFS/CS does it. You probably only need 8 bit instead of 32, so it should be smaller in memory and maybe you can even get away with lower res?

Unfortunately, we are on the very limit for 64MB cards. So,these maps would probably have to be omitted for them. With 128MB there is some space left and with 256 ones a lot.

Alternatively, one could think of a way for the skinner to say which object has which material attributes, say aileron is linen and wing metal.

[adlabs6]

If I understand , the requirement is that once you have saved or exported the file it is a very quick job to see it in 3D on the target model? Or are there other advantages to a viewer?

Yes, just to very quickly see the skin on the target model. All that's needed is rotation and zooming around the model center to examine areas of small details closely. It would be almost exactly like the plane info/viewer in IL2 where you read stats and rotate around the plane. Just that little 3d (rotate and zoom) window, with selectable skins is all thats needed.

This could even be a separate, small program that is not actually in the game. Just like a little previewer app, that loads the models from the game install, and the skins from where ever the author has them saved. This would have a small memory footprint when a paint program is opened, and be quick to open and close.

Yes, I heard that before from MSFS/CFS skinners.
<Coder's talk> I think this basically switches specular reflections on and off and does not affect the specular exponent, IOW the size of the highlights? </Coder's Talk>
Is there a tutorial or description about them somewhere?

I don't know of any locations for exact tutorials on software behind this. But in short, in FS2004 there is a default "shine" map that is roughly like sky above, land below... and this is very specular and seems to behave like "cube mapping" (I think that's the term). This gets applied to any aircraft that has a reflection, univerally. This map seems to "move" on the aircraft surface giving the appearance of reflections over the painted skin.

In FS2004, there is an alpha map in the DTX skin files containing an 8bit grayscale image, which controls how much of the "reflection" shows all over the skin. Such as white for no shine, black for max shine, and gray levels in between.

I easily think a separate lower resolution 8bit file like you suggested, that could contain this reflectance data, and could be left out for low end cards as an option.

As a skinner you can use subtle grades and make the shine appear in different amounts all over the aircraft, like it's wear, or different materials too.

Yes, I agree it would be nice to have a completely layered skin for each planetype, say in PSD format. Unfortunately, we are not able to supply this and it will be a job for the community

Hey no problem. I think working with IL2 made the community quite capable.

[RogueSnake]

Well, as far as the viewer goes, it might even be more simple. This Carviewer that I mentioned in the other thread, All it needs is mesh files, the models.

So if you had them, you should be able to use this already existing app.

Just a thought, not shure. I say this becuse this app was made to be used for Pappys Nascar 03 racing. And ppl made mesh files to were you could use it to view that new FIA GTR game's cars.

Here's a link to that CarViewer
http://gaming.vault9.net/forums/Skin...al-t21513.html

[Osram]

It's not as easy as that. Basically every game has it's own, non standard format. In very very few case (actually I remember only the one now) when there is an engine used in some games and that is very well known, it's model format can become a standard format that is supported by standard viewers and converters. That format BTW is the Quake format.

Thanks for the idea nevertheless

[Osram]

But in short, in FS2004 there is a default "shine" map that is roughly like sky above, land below... and this is very specular and seems to behave like "cube mapping" (I think that's the term). This gets applied to any aircraft that has a reflection, univerally. This map seems to "move" on the aircraft surface giving the appearance of reflections over the painted skin.

Ah, very interesting, I know that HL2 does something similar with a highly blurred map so it in that case does not look shiny. This produces "colour bleed effects".

In FS2004, there is an alpha map in the DTX skin files containing an 8bit grayscale image, which controls how much of the "reflection" shows all over the skin. Such as white for no shine, black for max shine, and gray levels in between.

I heard of that trick before in other games as well; To use the 8 bit alpha for something completely different instead of using a second texture.

As a skinner you can use subtle grades and make the shine appear in different amounts all over the aircraft, like it's wear, or different materials too.

Roger.

About layered templates:

Hey no problem. I think working with IL2 made the community quite capable.

That is true .
BTW, I just heard that the Hurricane 3D modeller has now for fun also made a skin for it and he will ship the original PSD.