Dora

[GiantFlyingRobots]

Thanks for the fantastic and detailed reply, its more than I'd hoped for.

Its quite a bit to digest. Its little wonder that I have thus far avoided profiling Luftwaffe types, and it doesn't bode well for the 262 that I have ready for paint.

Maybe I'll finish my Boston first.

[JMSmith]

BH,

i agree the top one is the best, but, and this is a BIG BUT, i still think the colours are somewhat guesswork.
you mention colour film, these are one of the worst things to be using, you can take a photo with two cameras using the same film at the same time in the same position and both can be different, but you already know this

give me proof, not partial proof and a little bit of guesswork, educated guesswork i grant you, but still guesswork.

can you please only shoot me in the leg

[BLOWHARD]

give me proof

I don't need to shoot at all. Both Japo and Eagle Editions are about as authoritative as you can get. Both have done exhaustive research and study of original photos. Not like us stuck with offset reproductions and scans posted online. There has also been tons of research dealing with similar planes from those production batches as well as study of survivors and artifacts. The colors mentioned can and have been verified and researched as well along with all known variations.
Given that, I still don't understand your doubt. If you know anything about Luftwaffe stuff you will know that what has been published in great detail by the sources mentioned earlier are as close as you or I will ever come. So either accept it as most likely or dismiss everything and believe nothing. And if you start doing that, why even do color profiles at all?
You ask for proof, I believe those books and their authors have given you more proof than you will ever get anywhere else.
Just out of curiosity, what sort of proof would you accept? I haven't seen anything published in my years of looking at Luft stuff that I feel you'd be satisfied with. Is there anyone you trust? Certainly you can't claim you know better, can you?
Anyway, post you specific arguments or I'll just have to assume you will doubt anything posted without reasons.

About color film, you can certainly see changes in color that cannot be seen in B&W. But you already know this. If you've got color film it's just one more thing to base you findings on. In this case there are a number of B&W photos taken in different lighting conditions and different times, plus the color 8mm film. Not to mention other planes from the same batch and the finishing practices of that batch. Aside from actually having the real unrestored plane, that's as good as you will ever get!
(but you already know this )

See? No bullets or guns were used in the reply, and no Smiths were harmed

[JMSmith]

flipping heck BH,

its nearly my bed time and ya throw me a curved ball like this,

my basic argument is with the colours, not where they are painted.
during the late war period nothing was set in concrete, hence the "new" underside colour 84, which i have not seen any good arguments for yet.
i have my own theorys but thats all they are, i don't say "this is the colour" or "this is how they made it", simply because no one knows,
what proof would i except, a time machine!!!!!!!!!
we know about the underwing bare metal and the such like, the topside colours were coming out in all variation of the RLM colour range "using up stocks" so two planes side by side on the factory floor could both be painted different, anything from 70/71,70/81,81/82,81/83 or any combination of them all, even the fine gentlemen you mention willl tell you this.

this is why i hate talking about late war RLM colours

now i am really tired, you made me use my brain

[BLOWHARD]

flipping heck BH,

its nearly my bed time and ya throw me a curved ball like this,

hehehehe, you started it, plus you said I couldn't shoot you in both legs

Ok, I follow you. I took your statement to mean that the colors were all wrong and it was some sort of smoke and mirrors gag the sources I referenced were trying to pull.

You'll notice that the most up to date sources refer to "that" color as some undefined thing, not specifically as 84 like other had previously suggested.
Plus, I don't think anyone is trying to define the basis of world religion here, so don't think too hard. Everyone is entitled to an opinion on how to proceed here. Yours is to ignore anything until you see it in writing from a war time Luftwaffe source. Other people are content with the colors they find on survivors and relics and are willing to believe their eyes rather to ignore it. And those who have studied those relics and surviving planes find that color on most all late war planes, and in a matching shade, not just a 1-off. AFAIK, many pieces and whole aircraft exist with a this "green gray" color on them, and it has been cataloged and compared. Are all these researchers wrong?
Certainly these photo show something, perhaps not precisely, but something is there-



And you can ignore these samples, can you?




Heya Simon, I know you must have an opinion-


JM, you weren't one of those guys who said the NSASM restoration guys got the color wrong when they rolled out the 262 restoration were you? Too bright you say?

Sorry for all the jabs JM, It's all in good spirit, I'm not trying to be mean, just engaging in a lively conversation about "that" color If I'm out of line, you can shoot me in both legs

[Otterkins2]

Ah, the dreaded Lufwaffe Colors Discussion. I gave up on that subject long ago. If it looks right to you, then it IS right! Anything is fair game with Lufty stuff. Some time ago, Clint shared an article on 109 E's during the Battle of Britain. It staggered me at the colour variations (and these were all backed up by surviving pieces of the wrecks) that nothing seemed standard and anything seemed possible. If you want ridgid, try American and British schemes.

The Luftwaffe operated on a totally different mentality. They used whatever came to hand at the moment because they were involved in a very fluid and increasingly mobile war that meant the "accepted" materials weren't always available. Paints were thinned with anything from varsol to kerosine and gas...all of which affect colour. Then there's the amount of thinners used and how heavily the paint was applied, not to mention the colour differences from batch to batch even with the same manufacturer of which there were many.

Just to confuse the issue even more, the Germans weren't afraid to use borrowed stocks such as Italian either. Let's not even think about captured stock such as what went on in Russia. There are numerous examples of that. We won't even think about weathering conditions either.

In the end, if you're afraid to profile Lufty beasts because of colour issues yer a wuss. It's one of the reasons why I love Lufty A/C so much .... nothing was standard and anything was possible. I'll never hack a guy over the use of colour unless it's REALLY off base.

[Supah]

Agreed with Otter, this is all assuming luftwaffe paintcrews didn't mix paints, use wrong thinners or non-official paints. Have a look at any modern aircraft, in which day and age coatings and their thinners are factory certified etc. VERY few have the same colour, even if their freshly painted. And these organisations do not have P-47's and Il-2 straffing them all day and night, trains and ships with their supplies getting bombed and and enemy advancing on their homeland.

Beyond that fly them for a month (especially in an area where people still use coal for heating) and it will have a totally different colour. Basically everything is right and nothing is wrong :P (hides from John)

[Otterkins2]

A big AMEN to that Supah! There are more variables than we can shake a stick at. Bottom line? Get off yer a$$ GFR and finish the drawing. (Eeeek! Hides from John.)

[GiantFlyingRobots]

A big AMEN to that Supah! There are more variables than we can shake a stick at. Bottom line? Get off yer a$$ GFR and finish the drawing. (Eeeek! Hides from John.)

Very funny Mr Jones...As if I'm ever going to finish anything!

[mclaring]

aha! THIS is the reason I stick to the Pacific theatre! No-one is gonna argue with me on Fifth Air Force markings. Ok, I'll shaddap now and let you Luftwaffe dudes get back into the fray! Rage on Luftwaffe-dudes!

(feeling smug) MC