German AC experts . . Help pls

[Otterkins2]

Jester already has these pics from me. Look very carefully at the photo. The lower balkekreuz DOES have a black outline. The hakenkreuz is not visible, because that would appear on the rudder only. Someone is confused here. In this series of photos we are looking at two entirely different A/C. Graf was codled to by the propaganda ministry and often flew aircraft at the same time that had almost identical markings, both 109's and 190's. Both of these A/C are G-5's variants, but one was an R5 variant while the tulip nose was armed with nebelwerfers. They were high altitude interceptors, so they would be pressurized to deal with the high altitude bomber streams. Graf was quite successful in dealing with these. Jester's interpretation is essentially correct.

[elephant]

Sorry I made a mistake.
I meant the under wing cross, of course and not the swastica on tail.
So you say that the a/c appearing in "my" pics with no tulip, is not the same as the one with the tulip, by Phas3e.
Well that's probable but means that Jester is in search for a serial number, once more

[Otterkins2]

The information I have on Graf's aircraft are as follows:

Bf 109 E-4 (werk nr. unknown) of 9/JG52. Markings were 4+~ with 04 Gelb cowl, spinner and lower wingtips.

Bf 109 F (werk nr. unknown) of 9/JG 52. Markings were 9+~ with the numeral being unusually large.

Bf 109 F-4 (werk nr. 7420) of 9/JG 52. Markings were 1+~.

Bf 109 G-1 (werk nr. unknown) of 9/JG 52. Markings were 1+~. Rudder had numeral 150 in a wreath with crossed swords and a further 22 kills.

Bf 109 G-5/R6 (werk nr. unknown) of JGr 50. Markings were +1. Wreath with 220 inside on rear fuselage.

Bf 109 G-5 with rakettenwerfers (werk nr. 15193) of JGr 50. Markings were +1. Red petals on nose. 21 Wiesse tail with 150 wreath and an additional 33 kills.

Bf 109 G-6 (werk nr. 26020). Markings were <+.

Fw 190 A-5 with modified supercharger intakes (werk nr. 2594). Petal nose, blitz on fuselkage and petal decorated rudder. 202 in wreath on the rudder.

Fw 190 A-5 (werk nr. unknown). Identical to above aircraft but unmodified.

If anyone has any information to the contrary or more details to add, I'd love to hear from you.

[Revolver]

Hallo zusammen,

wegen Hermann Graf Maschinen die er geflogen hat;

Bf109E-1 W.N. 3325(nicht sicher!) Gelbe N.- 4, 2./J.G.51 Frankreich, 1940

Bf109F-2 W.N. 7420 Gelbe N. - 1 9./J.G.52 Ukraine, 1941/42

Bf109F-4 W.N. 13073 Gelbe N. - 1 9./J.G.52 Ukraine, 1942

Bf109G-1 W.N. 13670 Gelbe N. - 11 9./J.G.52 Ukraine, 1942

Bf109G-5/R6 W.N 15913 Rote N. - 1 J.Gr.50 W.-Deutschland

Bf109G-6/R2 W.N. 15919 Gr?ne N. - 1 J.Gr.50 W.-Deutschland

Bf109G-6 W.N. 26026 oder 26020-"schwarzer Winkel" J.G.11 W.-Deutschland (mit die letzte schoss er ein P-51 am 29.3.1944 und 2er P-51 rammte)

Fw190A-5/U W.N. 2594 J.Erg.Gr.Ost S?d-Frankreich

Fw190A-6 W.N. 634 Sandhofen-Coleman, W.-Deutschland

Das ist mein Cent zur Graf's Flugzeugen die er geflogen hat.

P.S. Die enspr?chende Bilder werde ich hier nicht posten da ich wermeiden will das sie von "m?chte gern Autoren" auf gegriffen werden die ihre unheil weiter wie bis jetzt verbreiten werden um ihrer Profit daraus zu schlagen auf die kosten von Geschichte.


@ Serval
sry, das ich auf deutsch hier geschrieben hab aber schliesslich gehts hier um einen deutsche Flieger.

@ elephant,

You are right fully because of Graf's BF109.

MfG,


R.

[Jesters-Ink]

Thx for that Revolver, any chance of this-----> Flugzeugen des DAS ist mein Cent zur Grafs ?h sterben geflogen Hut.

P.S. Sterben enspr?chende Bilder werde ich, das hier nicht DA ich wermeiden DAS sie von „m?chte gern Autoren“ auf gegriffen werden sterben ihre unheil weiter wie BIS jetzt verbreiten werden um ihrer Profit daraus zu schlagen auf sterben kosten von Geschichte posten.

In English pls? My German is soooo rusty that I can't read a word of it.

[Otterkins2]

Jester, here is the translation (thanks to AGNT who is now OFFICIALLY a military man....CONGRATS!) sans the irrelivant parts. This information is HIGHLY suspect. I'd like to know where he got it from.

"Hello All,
These are the machines Hermann Graff Flew;

Bf109E-1 W.N. 3325(Not Sure!) Yellow N.- 4, 2./J.G.51 France, 1940
Bf109F-2 W.N. 7420 Yellow N. - 1 9./J.G.52 Ukraine, 1941/42
Bf109F-4 W.N. 13073 Yellow N. - 1 9./J.G.52 Ukraine, 1942
Bf109G-1 W.N. 13670 Yellow N. - 11 9./J.G.52 Ukraine, 1942
Bf109G-5/R6 W.N 15913 Red N. - 1 J.Gr.50 W.-Germany
Bf109G-6/R2 W.N. 15919 Green N. - 1 J.Gr.50 W.-Germany
Bf109G-6 W.N. 26026 or 26020 J.G.11 W.-Germany
Fw190A-5/U W.N. 2594 J.Erg.Gr.South East France
Fw190A-6 W.N. 634 Sandhofen-Coleman, W.-Germany

This is my perspective/view to the planes Graf Flew."

According to the info I have gained from very reputable sources (Barbas, Crandall, Morrison et al) the first A/C on the list should be an E-4 unless it had been retrofitted which is highly doubtful. Secondly, Graf never flew an aircraft with a red 1 on it and the one he lists as a red 1 CANNOT be red because it is a staff aircraft and should therefore be in green. There is also no indication of other markings on the A/C, so it is very difficult to verify the information. I would take this all in with a very large grain of salt.

[Revolver]

Jester, here is the translation (thanks to AGNT who is now OFFICIALLY a military man....CONGRATS!) sans the irrelivant parts. This information is HIGHLY suspect. I'd like to know where he got it from.

According to the info I have gained from very reputable sources (Barbas, Crandall, Morrison et al) the first A/C on the list should be an E-4 unless it had been retrofitted which is highly doubtful. Secondly, Graf never flew an aircraft with a red 1 on it and the one he lists as a red 1 CANNOT be red because it is a staff aircraft and should therefore be in green. There is also no indication of other markings on the A/C, so it is very difficult to verify the information. I would take this all in with a very large grain of salt.

Hallo,

my young friend, I will not be distinguish can at your place with such statements such as "This information is HIGHLY suspect." very carefully its there you E-1 of E-4 how I got it here with to provide rate I you first once original documents of Messerschmitt A. G. and to study it. Atention!!!, that will have to be set however everyone in German therefore you you too first with German language apart! What the authors named of you concerns can I only one say, drives PROFIT the is everything what it ahead nothing further! What however for example count it "Emil" concerns there see like all like he out of Cockpit an "Emil" gets out 109.12 the one wind protection construction has, what can to organize only to the E-1/3, there from E-4 became wind protection construction 109,101 received which also in the earlier "Friedrich it" relatedly became until it on 109,111 changed became.

(noch mals auf deutsch)
Mein junger freund, ich werde an deine Stelle mit solchen Behauptungen wie "Diese Informationen ist SEHR vermutet." ganz vorsichtig sein.Da du E-1 von E-4 nicht unterscheiden kannst, wie ich es hier mit bekommen habe, Rate ich dir erst mal Original-Unterlagen von Messerschmitt A.G. zu besorgen und sie zu studieren!Achtung!!!, die werden aber alle auf deutsch sein daher muss du dich zu erst mit Deutsche-Sprache auseinander setzen! Was das von dir genannten autoren angeht kann ich nur eins sagen, PROFIT das is alles was sie voran treibt nix weiter! Was aber z.B. Graf's "Emil" angeht da sehen wie alle wie er aus Cockpit eines "Emil" aussteigt der einen Windschutzaufbau 109.12 hat was nur zum E-1/3 zu ordnen kann, da ab E-4 wurde Windschutzaufbau 109.101 ?bernommen welches auch beim fr?heren "Friedrich's" verwendet wurde bis es auf 109.111 umgestiegen wurde.

Best regards,

R.

[Otterkins2]

R, I'm not questioning your motives. I'm questioning your sources. If you can provide proof to these claims, I'll sit down and shut up. In the meantime I'll stick to the records as provided to me by people with far greater knowledge in this area than I. Unfortunately the translation of your words is as confusing to me as is German itself, and I cannot therefore properly address your comments, and at 61 years of age I'm hardly all that young. I would dearly love to see the information that you have.

[tsorvasg]

Hi to all,

Jesters, I think that the type you have to make is Bf-109G-5

Unit: JGr 50
Serial: 1 (W.Nr.15913)
Pilot - Kommander of JagdGruppe 50, Major Hermann Graf, Wiesbaden-Erbenheim, Germany, Summer 1943. Note: Markings for 172 and 33 victories painted on the tailfin.

I don't think that this type was an R6 though, too heavy gun man!!! It would be difficult to handle against the Mosquitos he was fighting in high altitudes...

[Revolver]

R, I'm not questioning your motives. I'm questioning your sources. If you can provide proof to these claims, I'll sit down and shut up. In the meantime I'll stick to the records as provided to me by people with far greater knowledge in this area than I. Unfortunately the translation of your words is as confusing to me as is German itself, and I cannot therefore properly address your comments, and at 61 years of age I'm hardly all that young. I would dearly love to see the information that you have.

Lieber freund Otterkins2, bei uns in Deutschland sag man nicht zu eine Frau/Herr, (...mein alter Mann/Frau), also daher war es meine Meinung nach alles korekt. Man sagt auch; man ist so Alt wie man sich f?llt, und wenn du als ein alter Mann angesprochen m?chtest habe ich nix dagegen.
Was das Zeichnung(en) angeht, man kann sie alle in Original beim Herr U. Hafner http://http://www.luftfahrt-archiv-hafner.de/ besorgen um sie zu studieren.Da es Kopierrechtlich geschutz ist kann ich es nicht einfach so im Net ver?ffentlichen ohne das Genehmigung von Luftfahrt - Archive - Hafner, das kannst du doch verstehen...hoffe ich!?Das wegen schlage ich vor das du es dort selbst besorgst, aber wie gesagt die sind alle auf deutsch da es sich um Original-Unterlagen handelts. Oder aber du kannst gerne beim Bundesarchive nach fragen... wirdst Zeit und Geld kosten, aber immerhin besser als irgend welchen "m?chte gern autoren" zu lesen.Wenns um Technik geht, ich pers?nlich vertraue nur dem Original, aber wie gesagt, es ist halt das was allein nur mich betrifft. Wegen "Zweifel" kann ich nur eins sagen; wir ALLE kommen mit IHN in der Welt, und wir gehen mit IHN nider da es uns angeboren ist.

MfG,

R.